August 15, 2013
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Egypt
Soc doesn’t very often comment on current events, but this is important.
As I understand it, Egypt has a very complex politico-religious culture. The very conservative rural areas have always supported the Moslem Brotherhood – which is an old dissident organization – and certainly not democratic in its basic structure. When it got into power it began to persecuite other groups and there was a general uprising – mostly in the cities. The army – which since the time of Nasser has seen itself as the true saviour of egyptian culture – sided with the anti-MB protestors – with the obvious idea of preserving its own power – and has acted to crush the MB protests – a return to the way Egypt has been ruled ever since the British were thrown out.
We have the rather difficult decision to either supporting the anti-democartic Army crackdown or supporting the MB – a group that hates us and generally favors anti-american and anti-israeli terrorism. Obama’s comments seem to me to be pretty much on target.What’s your opinion?
Comments (9)
I don’t have enough knowledge about the two sides to form an opinion.
Today I was thinking over a post on the very same topic. I do NOT think Obama’s position is correct, NONE of his positions ever are. Having said that, I want to get back to the situation in Egypt, before coming back to Obama. First, this slaughter that’s going on is VERY BAD, even worse that the sharia rule persecution that was going on under the Muslim Brotherhood Morsi Administration. The problem is that government shouldn’t be run by the Military. (That’s what’s wrong with the USA RIGHT NOW – the NSA takeover is a Military/Intelligence Alliance and in no way verging toward anything democratic.) Philosophically, government is not a military initiative, and shouldn’t be run by the military. That’s the #1 thing wrong in Egypt right now. The Military even admits that. The Egyptian Military wants OUT of the government business as fast as it can get out. I believe it when they say that. The Military only got into running the government (in this instance) because the people DEMANDED the overthrow of Morsi. Rather than killing those 17 million people who were protesting Morsi, the Military SUPPORTED their interest, and deposed Morsi. The problem is forming a civilian government that respects the structure of a modern secular state. The Muslim Brotherhood only wants sharia law. Obama supports the Muslim Brotherhood…which is centered in Egypt, but is active all over the world, in support of sharia law – everwhere! Obama supports that. This is totally destructive, and a great modern evil. So, what do we have now in Egypt? We have civil war. Russia has stated it will support the Egyptian military. The USA – in public – says it it is neutral. I think that could change in light of these military atrocities. The Egyptian Military is wonderful in its commitment to the highest military ideals for the sake of the nation of Egypt; but it can’t go on killing Egyptians even if they are the lousy Muslim Brotherhood. So, Egypt’s problem is OUR PROBLEM. How to make a government that includes radical religious Muslims? The Military don’t know what to do except kill them. That’s what Military are good at (you may see that around here and soon too). If we just take a further look at the situation, and make a further observational statement, we can say that: NOT ONLY is Egypt’s problem OUR problem, but that, Egypt’s problem is a problem INTERNAL TO ISLAM. Accordingly, Saudia Arabia (like Russia) has pledged support to the Egyptian Military, regardless of the slaughter…. Obama, a Muslim more than a Christian, or rather, an apostate at both, still supports the Brotherhood, but is not in a position to commit American Military in their support, either in Egypt or Syria. The frustration must be building in Washington, and you can expect it to be unleashed somewhere somehow in dreadful fashion sometime in the not too distant future….War clouds are all around us, and that is never good for the people who only want peace.
@mortimerZilch - Thanks for your interesting comment, Mort.It seems to me that you have combined two different ideas here: First, your obvious rejection of Obama and your belief that he is somehow a secret crypto-muslim militarist. This belief should be the reason for a completely separate discussion.More important and germane to our present discussion however is your rejection of the Egyptian military influence in their government. Actually the military of many nations consider themselves the repository of their nation’s honor and basic soul; this is for example, common in many South American and European counties considered to be basically democratic as well as many under-developed nations in asia and Africa. It has never been a strong belief of the American military, as any quick scan of american military and social history will clearly show.The Egyptian military is well-integrated into the Egyptian economy and has what it believes are sound economic reasons for demanding influence over the egyptian government. their reaction to the MB was both predictable and in the US best interests. Their is no evidence that they plan to continue any massive military control of egyptian society – they much perfer to operate behind the scenes as much as possible.The US has a long close tie with the egyptian military which favors American economic and political interests in areas such as expedited Suez Canal transit for naval vessels and overflights over egyptian airspace as well as controlling access to Gaza – essential to our Israeli allies. These are not new Obama-originated policies – they go all the way back to Eisenhower.
Yeah, ok, but my views of Obama will prove rather to be intrinsic than extraneous to the discussion of what will or may occur in Egypt. Obama, personally, supports the Muslim Brotherhood both within Egypt and world-wide. That is in distinction to the long standing US policy, as you have stated, in support of Egyptian military. I think you will be surprised to see how Obama carries his view forward. In fact that is the key unknown factor at the present moment. Saudi Arabia and Russia endorsing the Egyptian Military strike a strong blow against terror, and the Brotherhood, which is centered world-wide in Egypt. If the killing goes on much longer – and how can killing stop an ideology? bang- you’re dead! Radical Islam, with its commitment to terror to achieve its “religious” goal only draws fuel from such reciprocal violence, as we have seen with our violent retaliation to Al-Queda since Bush era. So, if the killing goes on much longer, Obama as Commander-in-Chief has the power to act unilaterally with the US military…and will be strongly motivated to do so. Wouldn’t that be something to see? Hard to imagine really, and probably should be considered the worst-case example of how things can spin out of control. BUT IT WOULDN’T SURPRISE ME one bit with what we have in the Oval Office.
@mortimerZilch - What evidence do you have that “Obama personally supports the Muslim brotherhood”? The US has been quite aggressive in attacking radical islamist actors and strongholds – apparently more successfully than was done under GWB – all under petty direct presidential control. His latest comments on Egypt seem to be cautioning them to restrict their actions against the egyptian mass population and more toward propping up a restructured democracy. This is what the egyptian military seems to be doing.Things spun out of control much faster and further under GWB’s administration than they have under Obama, who has been left to try to pick up the pieces of a spectacularly failed US middle-eastern policy – which they also left you and me to pay for – a debt which the teapartiers in congress seem unwilling to acknowledge.How would you do things differently?
your slip is just now starting to show on this…besides the gratuitous slam on the Tea Party…which is un-pardonable, but will arouse nothing more than a raised eyebrow. “Evidence” you ask? How preposterous that you would ask that. It’s common knowledge. There is so much evidence that it would require a bibliography here. Obama personally supports the Muslim Brotherhood. Look at this…US Ambassador to Egypt Vows to Apply Pressure to Support Muslim BrotherhoodFreedom Outpost ^ | July 6, 2013 | Dean GarrisonPosted on Sat Jul 6 20:57:24 2013 by 2ndDivisionVet”There are always two stories in America. There is the one that comes from Obama’s mouth and then there is the truth. The truth of the matter is that this administration was “all in” on a Muslim Brotherhood controlled Egypt. You can’t trust a word they say now that Morsi has been overthrown. Although I have little doubt that Obama would gladly throw Morsi, or anyone else, under the bus for his own benefit, we should not be so sure that this administration is done with The Muslim Brotherhood. There are reports coming from a very respected journalist in the Arab world that Anne Patterson is turning up the heat and vowing to apply pressure:Evidence that the Obama administration is unhappy with the Egyptian people’s liberation from Muslim Brotherhood rule continues to emerge. As reported today by Youm 7, according to Muhammad Heikal — “the Arab world’s most respected political commentator” and for some 50 years a political insider — soon after the overthrow of Morsi, U.S. ambassador Anne Patterson assured Hisham Qandil, who hours ago was Egypt’s Prime Minister, that “there are many forms of pressure, and America holds the keys to the Gulf.”Such blatantly pro-Muslim Brotherhood assurances by Patterson are consistent with many of her other actions in Egypt, which have led most Egyptians, including politicians and activists, to refer to her as a Brotherhood stooge. Thus, and once again, the Obama administration makes indubitably clear that its primary interest in Egypt is to see the Muslim Brotherhood stay in power, the Egyptian people’s will — the will of tens of millions of secularists, liberals, moderates, and Christians — be damned.”other sources are Israeli intelligence reports on http://www.debka.comMuslim Brotherhood unfettered access to the White House through Valerie Jarrett is another evidence. So, case closed. The ONLY WAY I can see Obama carrying forward is to act as Commander-in-Chief…and THAT’S SCARY!
Ah, Soc, you are trying to use a logical and reasonable argument with someone who doesn’t know what that means. I support your arguments regarding the position of the U.S. to Egypt and I pray for the violence to end. But to think that Pres. Obama or our government supports the MB is so wrong. Perhaps some other readers/members of the Cafe will comment and we can get an interesting discussion going. I know, I’m just coming back from a long absence, and I don’t know how long I’ll be around, but I’m wanting to see what the Cafe is doing these days and maybe join in now and then. As I am now.
@anniemomz - Thanks for your support Annie.I have mirror sites up both on WordPress and Livejournal as well as here on xanga2 (whatever and whenever that starts)@mortimerZilch - Mort your sources sort of remind me of those in the old “BluBook of the John Birch Society” which commonly cited impossible or spurious sources (such as quoting FDR several years after he died) or using opinion as fact. You may be interested in my latest post.
Hi,Obama, and Bush for that matter, are part of a huge ignorance among Christians today that is based upon this assumption: That Islam and Islamic countries are actually capable of liberty and freedoms we find so common in the Christian countries. Liberty, even the very word, comes from Christian philosophy (its in the bible look it up) and thought not only based but originally birthed upon the New Testament. Without influence by Christianity there cannot be no liberty. Even in Japan the constitution was written and influenced by a great general by the name of General MacArthur. Islam is completely incapable of Liberty or freedom for that matter. You give them freedom and they expose their true beliefs by voting in the Muslim Brotherhood and burning Christian Churches. This is why our ignorant Christian politician have got to stop allowing these dunderheads to immigrate to America with their Islamic culture and anti Christian attitudes.I still remember certain Christians, even here on Xanga, celebrating showing pictures of Christians and Islam protesting Mubarak ushering in freedom. The only thing that keeps these people civil are dictatorships. ignorance is rampant among a populace that thinks it is a sin to educate women beyond kindergarden. The general population is ignorant and incapable of any kind of freedom. When they say they want freedom it is at someone else’s expense. They want the freedom to abuse Christians and Jews. they want the freedom to marry off their daughters to their Uncles when only ten years old. They want the freedom to riot at the drop of a pin needle to run & rape women and children like the many women reporters.So you Christians that actually celebrated the fall of Mubarak and the celebration of freedom in Egypt-how do you celebrate now? Christians all over Egypt are being driven from their churches and homes all in the name of this (sic) religion of peace Islam. Where I this peace Islam has? Just wait until a generation or two here in Amerika and you will see this same violence at the front doors of your children’s children. This so called religion of peace is spreading throughout the world and our ignoramus christian leaders and polititians keep calling them a religion of peace-what nonsense that is…God Bless,Brother RobertLeeRE